Intro/Outro (00:06)
From the Bill of Rights Institute, Fabric of history weaves together US history, founding principles, and what all of this means to us today. Join us as we pull back the curtains of the past to see what’s inside.

Haley (00:20)
The Fourth has many different meanings for many different groups in America. Some see it as a time to celebrate with barbecues. Others ask deep questions about the prevalence of slavery conflicting with the ideas of freedom for all presented in the Declaration of Independence. Many do both. Mary, Gary, and Eryn explore these themes today.

Mary (00:50)
So the 4 July has always been a really special holiday for me. And not just because I love hot dogs and I do love a good hot dog, but I’m a lifelong history nerd as an employee of the Bill of Rights Institute should be. And it’s America’s birthday, so it’s a chance to celebrate hot dogs and the Declaration of Independence. And I think it’s a fun summer holiday.

Gary (01:17)
Yeah, it’s a highlight of the summer. I mean, summer is great all around, but that to me has always been one of the big markers, if you look forward to it when it’s coming and kind of that’s when it’s real full swing summer. So I totally agree with you.

Eryn (01:32)
And it literally takes all of those very generalized ideas of what summer is supposed to be and smashes it all into one day. Like, you get the hot dogs, the barbecues, the pools, the apple pie, the beaches, the clam bakes, and it’s just all into one day. But I think it’s very interesting to be like, why do we do all these things specifically on one day?

Gary (02:00)
Yeah. It’s also really interesting to me that we all have shared experiences. It’s such a collective thing that we’re all celebrating. And yet I’m sure have shades of difference of how we have experienced it or things that stick out. When you think of your experience of the 4th of July over the years, what really sticks out to you?

Eryn (02:20)
I grew up going to the rodeo on the Fourth.

Gary (02:23)
I did not.

Eryn (02:27)
Here is what happens when you’re from the West Coast. It’s very like the Northern California gold rush town. So, yeah, it was just the week of 4th of July. Usually, I think the three starting July 1 to the 5. Every night there was a rodeo and you had your traditional rodeo, another super fun part where the mutton Busters. Are you guys familiar? You’re going to laugh when you actually hear what it is. So it’s little children, approximately five years old who all ride as long as they can on top of sheep. And the one that lasts the longest longer.

Gary (03:16)
Okay.

Eryn (03:16)
Yeah. And then so they have like their knee pads and their helmets on. I mean, they all literally the sheep start running out, and usually like 3 seconds later, they’ve all fallen off.

Mary (03:27)
That’s amazing.

Gary (03:28)
And the sheep are in on it.

Eryn (03:34)
Yes. Probably they don’t want to be. And yeah, I’m sure also not everyone is pleased with sheep being this way, but that’s just what I grew up with in my Folsom as well as and then they did every rodeo always finished with fireworks.

Gary (03:56)
Okay.

Eryn (03:58)
And as I have told Gary and Mary before, every rodeo always started with this guy jumping out of an airplane, a skydiver while the national anthem was playing. And as he got lower than he would release a flag and land in the arena to finish the national anthem. Yeah.

Gary (04:21)
Imagery there. Yeah.

Eryn (04:24)
That is literally the epitome of 4th of July. I don’t know why. And the Lake and the Lake, Folsom Lake. Everyone goes boating.

Gary (04:36)
Yeah. So I’m a Long Islander, so that does sound awesome. We didn’t really have a lot of rodeos. I think even as an adult, I look back and I think there was the classic thrill and kind of stress of just walking up the Main Street parade when you were a kid if you were in Cub Scouts or had a baseball team or these are not hypotheticals. These are ones I would be part of. Right. You would have like a flag or a banner, and then there would be fire trucks and similar kind of thing where it was just you’d walk through and you hope it was a nice day, and it kind of almost always was, which is a nice placement of early July. And then. Yeah, it was always down to the beach area, whether it be fireworks out on the water or even if you’re in New York, they do it on the river and things like this. Fireworks are such a key part of that. So it’s like the food, fireworks and getting together and of course, the flags everywhere, although in a lot of the towns, the flags were kind of up all year round. But there was something about that day of seeing them. You really pay attention to them.

Mary (05:43)
I do want to say that I don’t think we should have had Eryn go first because it’s really hard to top the Mutton Busters.

Gary (05:50)
A lot of competition.

Eryn (05:52)
I don’t know. To each his own. Going down to the beach sounds really fun. And my lifelong goal as a child was to participate in a parade.

Gary (06:00)
It was like compulsive something that you had to do as a child. I would eventually you’re like, all right, cool. I can get on board with this.

Mary (06:09)
My 4th of July. It’s very suburban, so there was a lot of some overlap with what Gary describes. And also on the East Coast, but no beach. There was always a block party. So we would gather with neighbors and have a big barbecue and then set off fireworks. So no rodeo, no waivers for riding sheep, no beach, but definitely fireworks and friends and good food and merriment and mosquito bites. So just still a fun time.

Gary (06:43)
Sure. But what’s in common is everybody comes together in your area. What it celebrates is very specific. It invites everybody into it. And even though we’re talking about different experiences, there’s this weird commonality that probably has lasted a while.

Eryn (07:04)
Lots of tradition, right. Even if they vary from place to place?

Mary (07:09)
Well, I think it would be this is the fabric of history, and we’re exploring these threads. So was the 4 July, did we always have barbecues or how has this celebration sort of changed over time? Is it still changing? I think that’s worth getting into. Let’s explore that after the break.

Mary (07:47)
Okay. So before the break, we were talking about our experiences of the 4 July and how we kind of just take it for granted that it’s the quintessential summer holiday. But why July 4? Like, why this day, what actually happens on this day? And I think one of the most interesting things to me about the 4 July is that at the time, John Adams didn’t actually think that July 4 was a special day. He thought July 2 would be celebrated as our Independence Day. And he actually writes to his wife Abigail on July 3 that the second day of July 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. So it’s kind of funny that it’s not actually the 4th of July. To this man who was there and has such a huge role in declaring independence, it was the 2 July.

Gary (08:40)
Yeah, It’s a really good it’s a good point taking it for granted part because, again, these are people who are living in a world where there hasn’t been tradition yet because it is happening. And so I think the common image is just this one moment where the first moment, one person signs it, there you go. The whole thing is done. It’s done in 30 seconds. And now we’re independent. And it obviously doesn’t work like that. It took some days, but I also liken that same writing, that same letter that he had that he sort of envisions a little bit of what we’re talking about. He says if I can steal from the same section of that letter, he says it ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations from one end of the country to the other from this time forward, forevermore. I mean, that’s a really good description of what ends up happening.

Mary (09:32)
Yeah, he got everything right except the date.

Eryn (09:36)
But why did he want it to be the 2nd of July versus the Fourth? And why is there this discrepancy?

Mary (09:42)
Well, I think the short answer is that twelve States voted for independence on July 2. So twelve of the 13 colonies, but they wanted the decision to be unanimous and New York abstained on July 2 because they were waiting for direction from their state legislature. So on the Fourth was when it was a unanimous decision, it was officially adopted and Congress approves it. So that’s where the discrepancy comes from. But I think that two-day holding period where New York is waiting for directions on what to do is really interesting because like Gary alluded to before, at the time in 1776, this was a very dangerous choice. And it was kind of a slow time coming because to declare publicly and openly independence from the world’s greatest power was not to be taken lightly. And any man that signed that document, if we had lost the Revolutionary War, which seemed very possible at several points during war, all of those men could have been hung as traitors to the King. So it’s this fun time now. But at the time, I think it was a very solemn decision, and there was a lot of happiness and excitement because there were some who had been waiting for independence to be declared, like John Adams. But I think for some people it was, you know, this is we’re breaking with the motherland. We have these cultural and familial ties to Great Britain, and we’re casting them off. So it was definitely a big moment.

Gary (11:23)
And that’s a really important point. The celebration is about a document. It’s not like it was the day the war ended or the day the war began. It’s celebrating the document that is happening while this Revolutionary war is occurring. What is at stake is enormous. And we don’t necessarily celebrate with the same pomp and circumstance either the kick-off of the war or the roll-up of the war. It’s the document. And I think that’s a really important part of the core basis of what we are celebrating is a written document. Let’s consider the birthday being this Independence day, which again asterisks the 4 July, but getting back to that sort of thing. So we have sort of the beginning. What else about that vision at the time, or at least afterward? The celebration of the first anniversary is already the fourth, right. So in 1777, that’s when it’s considered the fourth is the day to Mark. So decisions, I guess, had been made in that year, but also a lot of what happens in that first anniversary sounds very familiar. I was finding one from the Virginia Gazette about how that town celebrated it. And there’s some really interesting things that said there was armed ships and galleys in the river. The colors of the United States and streamers were displayed. They discharged 13 Cannon from the ships from each of the 13 galleys in honor of the 13 United States of the time. The evening had bells and fireworks. In 1777, 13 Rockets on the Commons. Everything was illuminated. So within a year, July 4 becomes at least a prototypical version of a seemingly common way to celebrate it with the colors of the United States, with the fireworks, with the gatherings, with the music. So it’s pretty remarkable compared to most traditions, how much has continued over centuries.

Eryn (13:38)
What I think is really fascinating, too, is that you’re following the Declaration of Independence. It just seems like there is such joy and pomp and circumstance with a war still going on. And like Mary said, this was kind of dangerous. They didn’t know if they were going to win the war, and they were already, in my opinion, celebrating it kind of like they had. And maybe that is because we know what 4th of July is today, but it does still seem very celebratory for a country at war with Great Britain.

Mary (14:19)
Well, I think at least this is kind of speculative. But the war is hard. It’s not just the men fighting it. The women are supporting the army. In a lot of cases, they follow the army, and your crops and your farm could be confiscated by either side. So there’s definitely life is hard now, but I think life was much harder then. I think that’s a fair statement. And maybe it was just a chance to have a celebration and just be with other people and have some fun because I think that’s sort of how it works today, and I think maybe that’s sort of a timeless piece of it. I don’t know.

Gary (15:02)
It is, again, knowing the history of it, that there is still a war going on. This reflection of the time has an important assumption of the buy-in of people right to have crowds, you need a large number of people who not only believe in the cause but believe in being independent. I don’t know that everyone did, but there certainly was enough to celebrate together. I mean, what that must have been like in towns to say, like, it’s a foregone conclusion. We’re totally independent, even though we’re still fighting a war about it and your neighbors, I have to again speculate that there’s a spectrum of opinion on this, and yet there’s enough of a buy-in to warrant parades and big celebrations across the colonies. Yeah. And luckily there are good primary sources of people who luckily people journaled.

Mary (16:04)
So the Virginia Gazette is reporting one year after the official adoption of the Declaration of Independence. It sounds like a really great party. I wish I was there to see the ships and all the firing of everything, but who wasn’t celebrating. Like, there are certainly loyalists, there are certainly people on the fence about independence. And there are also many enslaved individuals to whom this document talking about freedom and equality is not really applicable to their current situation. So I think that’s something that maybe we should pause for a second and come back and talk a little bit about that.

Mary (17:03)
Okay. So before the break, we were talking about these eternal principles that the Declaration of Independence puts forth. So it is a breakup letter, but it’s also very philosophical, and it has these really.

Gary (17:19)
Yes, it’s a deep breakup letter. It really goes into the meaning of freedom as we break up with Britain.

Mary (17:25)
But we also said that there’s this split between having these principles and then they’re not fully applied at the time because you have the institution of slavery that exists. But I think what’s really interesting about these promises, these eternal principles, is that they’re set out from the beginning. And even in the very beginning, you have this movement of freedom suits where enslaved individuals petition for their freedom using the promises of the Declaration of Independence. And they are particularly clustered in New England. You have freedom suits. There’s one named Elizabeth Freeman and quote, Walker in Massachusetts, that lead to in 1783. So you have all these I mean, these promises aren’t falling on deaf ears. People are very much in tune to if all men are created equal, then why aren’t we actually equal? And I think that is extremely powerful that you have that from the very beginning. And it continues on into the 19th century as slavery persists in the new country.

Gary (18:31)
Right. It shows attention was paid to this document and really contemplated and sort of the not only moral but also like legal arguments about if the foundation of this nation we are talking about is the case and if we exalt this document or honor this document. And there are some really good logical legal questions about what does freedom mean, that, as you said, from the very beginning, people take on and monitor.

Eryn (19:01)
So were the freedom suits a symbolic document or documents, or were the actual legal documents that were presented to courts as petitions for freedom?

Mary (19:14)
Well, I think it varied. And I’ll speak to one petition is called Belinda Sutton, and she petitions the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Her owner was actually a loyalist, so she technically didn’t have an owner. She actually petitions for basically reparations, saying, I have no income. I’ve worked my whole life. And she’s given it she’s given that in a court of law. So due process applies. But it’s very I just think it’s really again, I’m just repeating myself and now Gary, but just to have and I think that’s part of what makes the Declaration of Independence so incredible is that these principles mean something, and people are going to use them to act on them as early as 1776, and they’re still acting on them today. But I think one particularly one person who really eloquently points out this discrepancy between these principles and the reality of slavery is Frederick Douglass in his famous speech What to the Slave is the 4th of July, and this is in 1852. But even Douglass himself, he escapes from slavery. He doesn’t despair that I mean, he certainly wants slavery to end. But he says while drawing encouragement from the Declaration of Independence, the great principles it contains, and the genius of American institutions, my spirit is also cheered by the obvious tendencies of the age. So he’s basically saying it’s the 4th of July and you’re celebrating. But I must mourn this day because slavery still exists. But he ends by saying that the downfall of slavery is inevitable. The doom of slavery is certain. I, therefore, leave off where I began with hope and just hope. And this belief in these principles, that’s extremely powerful for someone who experienced the horrors of slavery firsthand to say these principles as we put them down in 1776 apply to everyone and the work is ongoing. But we’ll get there. And I think that’s just if that doesn’t give you nerd goosebumps, then checking pumps.

Eryn (21:30)
I’m going to start using that one.

Gary (21:32)
Yeah. I mean, that really is powerful, though, right? Again, it’s not a celebration of a thing that happened in the past and we’re just remembering it. This is an ongoing action. Independence Day is to at least one day a year, if not every day of the year, but on that one come together and say contemplate, what was the meaning of this documented promise? Is it aspirational is it so forward-looking? But then also, where are we at right now with it? It’s something that we’re always working towards these, as you said, kind of deeply philosophical breakup from England. But then what are we on our own? And that looking forward isn’t just the end of the time that we were part of English colonies, but rather the beginning and ongoing struggles of what is this national identity? What are these freedoms, these big parts? I mean, that speech is remarkable. Frederick Douglass refers to the great principles of political freedom and natural justice embodied in the Declaration and independence. But then there’s that it exists. But then he highlights but how is it extended to us? How is it extended to everybody in some way that really is not? And so that aspirational it’s a reflection on the time as much as it is a celebration of the past and looking to the future, that’s super important. Another one a couple of years later. I thought it was an interesting statement. In 1859, the Banneker Institute of Philadelphia, there was a chairman of the meeting, Jacob C. White Jr. He was talking to African Americans to celebrate about celebrating Independence Day. And his quote is really interesting, too. He said we have learned by experience and by the comparison of ourselves with people similarly situated to hope that at someday not very far in Futurity, our grievances will be redressed, that our long lost rights will be restored to us, and that in the full stature of men we will stand up and with our once cruel opponents and oppressors rejoice in the Declaration of our common country and hail with them the approach of the glorious Natal day of the great Republic. And that is 1859.

Eryn (24:02)
I think what’s really interesting is that kind of thinking back to our previous discussion about how the first time they really celebrated the 4 July and the Declaration, the war was still going on, and it was very aspirational. And so I think that message and that symbolism. It started the year after the Declaration was signed or even the date was signed, 1776, 1177. And they said, we believe that these things will happen, that we will persevere. And it took many years for them to get that first step. And so I think it makes a lot of sense that is just extended throughout the years and that we continue to have these aspirations that were set forth in the Declaration of Independence and how we can constantly learn and grow from them.

Gary (25:03)
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, again, referring to the deeply philosophical breakup letter. Right. These principles are, to take a word from Kirk, who works in our content team, that they’re abstract principles, but they have to be literally lived. It’s daily choices and action and work that’s done by everybody. It doesn’t just happen. You don’t just declare it. And the concept of freedom and equality emerges. That’s something that is working toward exactly like you’re saying, Eryn, daily at that point all the way through the centuries to today and tomorrow.

Eryn (25:42)
Yeah, it’s like there’s always work that can be done. And I like to believe that all the signers of the Declaration, that was what they were really striving for. Like, we need to constantly check ourselves, and that’s an ongoing thing because we’re humans. Right. And we need to think about how we can always be better.

Mary (26:05)
So I think like Douglass said in 1852, we leave off where we began with hope, that despite the fact that the promises of the Declaration were not and sometimes still are not applied to everyone as they should be, people will still come together on the 4th of July. It’s a civic holiday. You’re with your friends and your community and your family, but not just your family. You’re with your family, the community at large. Whether you are riding a sheep and hopefully with protective gear or eating a hot dog or just sitting in the grass watching fireworks, I think it’s just a moment to think about. We’re lucky to be in a place that has these principles that we strive for and the work is ongoing. But there’s not cause for despair. I think there is still cause for hope, and I think that is definitely worthy of a barbecue. So if you have something you want to share with us about the 4th of July, what does it mean to you, or how do you celebrate this day? What comes to mind? Please let us know. You can hit us up at comments@fabricofhistry.org. Thanks for listening.

Intro/Outro (27:29)
The Bill of Rights Institute engages, educates, and empowers individuals with a passion for the freedom and opportunity that exists in a free society. Check out our educational resources and programs on our website mybri.org. Any questions or suggestions for future episodes? We’d love to hear from you. Just email us at Comments@fabricofhistory.org and don’t forget to visit us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram to stay connected and informed about Future episodes. Thank you for listening.